Drakensberg hiking maps
14 Mar 2012 14:09 #53232
by Slingsby2
Replied by Slingsby2 on topic Drakensberg hiking maps
Yeah, sorry ghaznavid, I'm being thick, I looked at both versions but I can't see clearly what you're referring to. Maybe that's such a tight small area that it needs a bigger scale or something. 1:50 000 is often not so hot for hiking - 1:25000 is so much better, but you need 4 times as many maps ...
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20 Mar 2012 05:51 #53254
by ghaznavid
Replied by ghaznavid on topic Drakensberg hiking maps
@Peter: in raising a question from an old post I put up around a year ago (shortly after failing to climb Popple peak for the third time in four months), was there any particular reason why Gypateus Point's height was not recorded on the maps? Probably being something like SA's 105th highest point?
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20 Mar 2012 12:05 #53258
by Slingsby2
Replied by Slingsby2 on topic Drakensberg hiking maps
ghaznavid -
I remember that being something that annoyed us at the time ... there was no spot height on the Trig maps for Gypateus. I don't know whether the newer editions include it but it wasn't there then. We relied on the 1:50000's for that kind of info. As I recall there are several other prominences that deserve a height, but none is given. These days you can do quite well with a decent GPS reader but we didn't have that option.
I remember that being something that annoyed us at the time ... there was no spot height on the Trig maps for Gypateus. I don't know whether the newer editions include it but it wasn't there then. We relied on the 1:50000's for that kind of info. As I recall there are several other prominences that deserve a height, but none is given. These days you can do quite well with a decent GPS reader but we didn't have that option.
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18 Sep 2014 09:13 #61834
by andre
Replied by andre on topic Drakensberg hiking maps
As far as I recall the status of the Parks Board Berg maps was raised but has perhaps not been clarified. As I have it pieced it together a legacy of the initial work has been left by Peter Slingsby, though he was not working on the project, at the time of my scratching around. The Geomaps company which provided the service for the Parks board after Peter’s active involvement was based in Pietermaritzburg, but has now left for New Zealand and have discontinued their service. Currently the maps are done in house by Natal parks board by Heidi Snyman . Apparently the WGS84 version of the map set are in pre-publication phase. It appears that te Parks Board mapping staff complement is limited and despite interest a digital version of the maps may therefore not be supportable and published as such ie only paper copies may be printed and sold at a future date. Then there may also be the issue of confidential information as some is intended for Parks board purposes only. Hopes this answer some questions on status. I hesitated to publish this but decided to do so for information purposes only and as I have by myself wondered, naively perhaps, if this may be a good time for forum members to offer support for the detail therein if this has not been done so already or done so by others eg MCSA, and as a remote idea, perhaps someone will want to try to provide an independent service for digital maps?
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18 Sep 2014 10:50 #61836
by ghaznavid
There was talk of a VE digital map a few years ago - I personally should have been more involved in it at the time, I don't know what happened with that project in the end though.
Do you have contact details for people who may be interested in getting involved?
Replied by ghaznavid on topic Drakensberg hiking maps
andre wrote: I have by myself wondered, naively perhaps, if this may be a good time for forum members to offer support for the detail therein if this has not been done so already or done so by others
There was talk of a VE digital map a few years ago - I personally should have been more involved in it at the time, I don't know what happened with that project in the end though.
Do you have contact details for people who may be interested in getting involved?
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18 Sep 2014 12:24 #61837
by andre
Replied by andre on topic Drakensberg hiking maps
I cannot speak for them, hence the I wish someone may do something about this tone of mine, apart from the general interest that is apparant on this site, eg the member who was doing the 3d mapping using the current cape sytem Maps; I think he could do better if he gets the maps in digital WGS84 from Heidi Snyman <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>. She has however expressed the prior mentioned reservations. There was also a Garmin associated special Map done by an enthusiast at http ://tracks4africa.co.za/media/maps/specialmaps/download/Drakensberg_V3.00_1.zip, perhaps the leader of that project would like to do this . My help is generally obtained from Craig Leat <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.> who is very skliied in GIS and MAPS, I dont know what his interets in such aproject may be though. Regards Andre'
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18 Sep 2014 13:12 - 18 Sep 2014 13:13 #61838
by intrepid
Take nothing but litter, leave nothing but a cleaner Drakensberg.
Replied by intrepid on topic Drakensberg hiking maps
The VE map idea has been mooted from various angles, and the desired functionality of some of the suggestions extends beyond simply having a digital map of the Berg. The ideal map should also be interactive and provide more information than the current paper and GPS maps available. It all sounds very good, very fun and certainly nice to have. However, it always comes back to who does the actual work and how sustainable the project is.
So far everything that VE offers and does has been self-funded (in money and a lot of time) in the interests of promoting the Maloti-Drakensberg and to nurture a proactive concern for the challenges it faces. However, I believe that for projects such a digital, or interactive map, to be sustainable in the long term, its must earn its keep - not just paying for a few bills, but actually making the time and effort worth it. And that is the crux.
So far everything that VE offers and does has been self-funded (in money and a lot of time) in the interests of promoting the Maloti-Drakensberg and to nurture a proactive concern for the challenges it faces. However, I believe that for projects such a digital, or interactive map, to be sustainable in the long term, its must earn its keep - not just paying for a few bills, but actually making the time and effort worth it. And that is the crux.
Take nothing but litter, leave nothing but a cleaner Drakensberg.
Last edit: 18 Sep 2014 13:13 by intrepid.
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18 Sep 2014 15:25 #61839
by andre
Replied by andre on topic Drakensberg hiking maps
Yes indeed. Its a matter of investemnt running cost vs sustainable return. No doubt about that. And perhaps that is why even Mr Slingsby himself over time did not see the viability in it for himself as a business? However,he may want to reconsider this today. Also, if a commercial service provider such as Tracks 4 Africa or Garmin could be persuaded that there is a large enough market, to purcahse a licence for the data from the Parks Board, who has it available, but so far intend to sell at as paper copies, and T4A and Garmap then market it as a digital map as they do, then perhaps this can work.
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19 Sep 2014 06:42 #61843
by andre
Replied by andre on topic Drakensberg hiking maps
Please note that I revistited this thread with information. Upon re-thinking the topic I think what my real motive was is to offer a snippet of info that I have picked up
As copied reight below
This was in response to the fantastice value I had when querying the site on for example how to ascend corner pass or the southern Hodgsons peak. I suppose it stems from a the need to prepare effectivly for the next trip. This poses the question that I have: to what extent can vertical endeavour encorporate an index of trails that are dumped by users into say an openstreetmap type of environment for easy access to other usesrs. Ie as opposed to a query which is responeded to by 'I have such a track' or 'see there' or 'give me your e-mail I will send it to you', which is part of life, but I have after trips thought 'it might have helped if I had asked the right question and had known this answer before I went last time'. Such a respository I guess should be accompanied by the tacit info around the risks that are involved ie techical skills required by the sitaution or the difficulty that vegetation etc impose. The reason I have the impression that more knowledege is available in members heads than what is sometimes evident on the site. This may perhaps be a funtion of its too onerous always to dowload, or too difficult to eplain effectivly how to mitigate the risks. Either way, I really value the help that is available on the site. Coming back to the digital maps, I think in the end my needs would often be met my a digital version of the Natal Parks Boards Maps on my GPS and I am prepared to pay a similar price for this as for the other maps that are available on the market.
"As far as I recall the status of the Parks Board Berg maps was raised but has perhaps not been clarified. As I have it pieced it together a legacy of the initial work has been left by Peter Slingsby, though he was not working on the project, at the time of my scratching around. The Geomaps company which provided the service for the Parks board after Peter’s active involvement was based in Pietermaritzburg, but has now left for New Zealand and have discontinued their service. Currently the maps are done in house by Natal parks board by Heidi Snyman . Apparently the WGS84 version of the map set are in pre-publication phase. It appears that te Parks Board mapping staff complement is limited and despite interest a digital version of the maps may therefore not be supportable and published as such ie only paper copies may be printed and sold at a future date. Then there may also be the issue of confidential information as some is intended for Parks board purposes only. Hopes this answer some questions on status."
As copied reight below
This was in response to the fantastice value I had when querying the site on for example how to ascend corner pass or the southern Hodgsons peak. I suppose it stems from a the need to prepare effectivly for the next trip. This poses the question that I have: to what extent can vertical endeavour encorporate an index of trails that are dumped by users into say an openstreetmap type of environment for easy access to other usesrs. Ie as opposed to a query which is responeded to by 'I have such a track' or 'see there' or 'give me your e-mail I will send it to you', which is part of life, but I have after trips thought 'it might have helped if I had asked the right question and had known this answer before I went last time'. Such a respository I guess should be accompanied by the tacit info around the risks that are involved ie techical skills required by the sitaution or the difficulty that vegetation etc impose. The reason I have the impression that more knowledege is available in members heads than what is sometimes evident on the site. This may perhaps be a funtion of its too onerous always to dowload, or too difficult to eplain effectivly how to mitigate the risks. Either way, I really value the help that is available on the site. Coming back to the digital maps, I think in the end my needs would often be met my a digital version of the Natal Parks Boards Maps on my GPS and I am prepared to pay a similar price for this as for the other maps that are available on the market.
"As far as I recall the status of the Parks Board Berg maps was raised but has perhaps not been clarified. As I have it pieced it together a legacy of the initial work has been left by Peter Slingsby, though he was not working on the project, at the time of my scratching around. The Geomaps company which provided the service for the Parks board after Peter’s active involvement was based in Pietermaritzburg, but has now left for New Zealand and have discontinued their service. Currently the maps are done in house by Natal parks board by Heidi Snyman . Apparently the WGS84 version of the map set are in pre-publication phase. It appears that te Parks Board mapping staff complement is limited and despite interest a digital version of the maps may therefore not be supportable and published as such ie only paper copies may be printed and sold at a future date. Then there may also be the issue of confidential information as some is intended for Parks board purposes only. Hopes this answer some questions on status."
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19 Sep 2014 12:54 - 19 Sep 2014 14:44 #61847
by intrepid
The organisation of information is a topic that comes up from time to time on this forum, in different ways. I do take note of ideas and suggestions and consider what can be done about it. In a way the synergistic effect of this forum produces the need, or the desire, for more organised information. So my response below is not simply a reply to the question above, it is a reply to several questions/suggestions that have come up over time.
While being open to ideas and willing to experiment, I do feel strongly that with an initiative, there is a need to strike a balance with 1) the sustainability, and 2) the worthiness of the achievement (especially in relation to the resources it may take to get there). Projects, ideas and initiatives come and go. Suggestions and ideas are good, but I dislike seeing half-completed projects, or initiatives that simply burn out eventually because the few individuals that worked hard at it just can't do it any more.
I do believe that information can be organised a bit better on this site, while at the same time I do not wish everything to presented on a platter. There will never be a perfect way to present it and there will always be the request to add something or change something etc. A self-help approach on a forum such as this one is one of the ways to sustainability, and readers should be willing to read through existing posts before asking the same questions again, and if there is anything more they wish to know, be willing to ask for it on the forum. And posting back with your own info after a trip is an excellent way of giving something back.
The challenge is also the limited number of interested people. The size of the community active in hiking and climbing in the Berg is not large. Of that community, a certain number are readers of this site. Of that portion, a smaller percentage participate in discussions. And from that group, you have a small portion that will actively and consistently contribute to more structured approaches of documentation such as wikis or openstreetmap type approaches. This is no indictment on anyone, its simply a fact of life and relevant to other spheres too. So for any such Berg-related initiatives, the number of active contributors is going to be pretty limited.
As for mapping communities/projects such as Google Maps and OpenStreetMap, certainly these are considered and looked at. At the same time, I am not in favour of a mass upload of all my own GPS data, as I don't wish to bind myself to the terms and conditions of those relevant sites, nor is it then hosted on a site where conservation and protection of the Berg is promoted. A lot of data is available here, and other members have also contributed theirs too. It just isn't in a handy format that some people may want it to be in - like in an interactive map. The map idea has come up time and again. A Google Map project was started but didn't get very far - and this is my point. It often takes one or two individuals to make it happen, and it requires a lot of time investment. Inevitably, those individuals run out of energy/interest and the project dies, unless it actually is financially worth it. So, I am still open to some sort of map idea, but so far nothing suitable has taken root and I certainly do not have space to drive this in my own time and capacity.
That being said, I am looking at some sort of simple wiki, or catalogue system, whereby information can be presented in a more concise, systematic way, with relevant links to forum threads, photos and downloads. A wiki has been attempted before, and very simple catalogues, or lists rather, of things such as Berg passes and the peaks above 3300m, already exist on this site. This new wiki/catalogue will be dependant on willing contributors that can process and consolidate existing info on this site, together with their own. It will be of a concise nature however. Too much detail and info leads to sustainability issues again. All of this needs time however and will not happen overnight.
In closing, three projects that VE has given itself to are: 1) participation in alien plant eradication (the Pine Tree Project), 2) dealing with the cable car proposal, 3) supporting some of the environmental work being in the AmaZizi and AmaNgwane areas. VE's capacity and resources to cater for great mapping/catalogue ideas, have to be understood in this greater context.
Take nothing but litter, leave nothing but a cleaner Drakensberg.
Replied by intrepid on topic Drakensberg hiking maps
andre wrote: This poses the question that I have: to what extent can vertical endeavour encorporate an index of trails that are dumped by users into say an openstreetmap type of environment for easy access to other usesrs.
The organisation of information is a topic that comes up from time to time on this forum, in different ways. I do take note of ideas and suggestions and consider what can be done about it. In a way the synergistic effect of this forum produces the need, or the desire, for more organised information. So my response below is not simply a reply to the question above, it is a reply to several questions/suggestions that have come up over time.
While being open to ideas and willing to experiment, I do feel strongly that with an initiative, there is a need to strike a balance with 1) the sustainability, and 2) the worthiness of the achievement (especially in relation to the resources it may take to get there). Projects, ideas and initiatives come and go. Suggestions and ideas are good, but I dislike seeing half-completed projects, or initiatives that simply burn out eventually because the few individuals that worked hard at it just can't do it any more.
I do believe that information can be organised a bit better on this site, while at the same time I do not wish everything to presented on a platter. There will never be a perfect way to present it and there will always be the request to add something or change something etc. A self-help approach on a forum such as this one is one of the ways to sustainability, and readers should be willing to read through existing posts before asking the same questions again, and if there is anything more they wish to know, be willing to ask for it on the forum. And posting back with your own info after a trip is an excellent way of giving something back.
The challenge is also the limited number of interested people. The size of the community active in hiking and climbing in the Berg is not large. Of that community, a certain number are readers of this site. Of that portion, a smaller percentage participate in discussions. And from that group, you have a small portion that will actively and consistently contribute to more structured approaches of documentation such as wikis or openstreetmap type approaches. This is no indictment on anyone, its simply a fact of life and relevant to other spheres too. So for any such Berg-related initiatives, the number of active contributors is going to be pretty limited.
As for mapping communities/projects such as Google Maps and OpenStreetMap, certainly these are considered and looked at. At the same time, I am not in favour of a mass upload of all my own GPS data, as I don't wish to bind myself to the terms and conditions of those relevant sites, nor is it then hosted on a site where conservation and protection of the Berg is promoted. A lot of data is available here, and other members have also contributed theirs too. It just isn't in a handy format that some people may want it to be in - like in an interactive map. The map idea has come up time and again. A Google Map project was started but didn't get very far - and this is my point. It often takes one or two individuals to make it happen, and it requires a lot of time investment. Inevitably, those individuals run out of energy/interest and the project dies, unless it actually is financially worth it. So, I am still open to some sort of map idea, but so far nothing suitable has taken root and I certainly do not have space to drive this in my own time and capacity.
That being said, I am looking at some sort of simple wiki, or catalogue system, whereby information can be presented in a more concise, systematic way, with relevant links to forum threads, photos and downloads. A wiki has been attempted before, and very simple catalogues, or lists rather, of things such as Berg passes and the peaks above 3300m, already exist on this site. This new wiki/catalogue will be dependant on willing contributors that can process and consolidate existing info on this site, together with their own. It will be of a concise nature however. Too much detail and info leads to sustainability issues again. All of this needs time however and will not happen overnight.
In closing, three projects that VE has given itself to are: 1) participation in alien plant eradication (the Pine Tree Project), 2) dealing with the cable car proposal, 3) supporting some of the environmental work being in the AmaZizi and AmaNgwane areas. VE's capacity and resources to cater for great mapping/catalogue ideas, have to be understood in this greater context.
Take nothing but litter, leave nothing but a cleaner Drakensberg.
Last edit: 19 Sep 2014 14:44 by intrepid.
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