Safety and leadership in the Berg

kbresler wrote: Why are parents willing to send their kids on a camp of this nature if not run by registered professionals?

I don't think normal school camps are run by registered professionals either. If you think about how those usually include rock climbing and abseiling - its quite scary in my opinion. I remember abseiling off a figure of 8 and climbing off a locking biner that was tied in - I understand the cost and practicality side of things, but really, we weren't cutting our food with rocks so what's up with outdated gear or adding an extra item that can fail just to save a bit of time?

A KZN school (whose name I won't mention) went to do Giant's Cup not too long ago, but it was lead by people with no Berg experience. They showed up at 3PM and expected to hit Pholela Hut before dark - how long can 9km take anyway? They soon lost the path, and ended up having an uncomfortable night bivy under a small rock overhang, the next morning they returned home and the school's hiking camp program was since cancelled. It annoys me that this kind of thing happens, but it is a reality. At least the Hilton College guys do probably have prior Berg experience.

Just thought that I would throw this out there. Would you send your kids with a newly registered professional with little berg experience or a competent person who is not a registered professional but who has a vast amount of berg knowledge and berg time. I personally would choose the latter.
Regards
Selous

Selous wrote: Just thought that I would throw this out there. Would you send your kids with a newly registered professional with little berg experience or a competent person who is not a registered professional but who has a vast amount of berg knowledge and berg time. I personally would choose the latter.

There is certainly a lot of sense in what you are saying and I will most certainly always back experience. That being said it can become a legal issue and without a qualification you do leave yourself exposed when leading people. To legally guide groups in the High Berg (above 2400amsl) you need to hold an AML. To qualify for AML registration you either need to do an extensive training or prove RPL. Afterwards you need to log an extensive number of mountain nights in a guiding role to qualify for final assessment. So it is safe to say that by the time you obtain a legal AML you should be experienced. This may also explain why we have so few AML's in this country. But experience, I guess, is the key word.

Perhaps a thread split is in order?
I hope the school has good liability insurance, I believe they are in for it.
It astounds me how people misunderstand the legal consequences of their leadership and decisions.
(I qualified as a nature guide and almost qualified as a white-water guide)

I think you make a very good point and would like to hear more on the responsibility of Leadership... a new thread is a good idea too

ASL wrote: I think you make a very good point and would like to hear more on the responsibility of Leadership... a new thread is a good idea too

Seconded, I mean, ummm, thirded...

this may not be the right place for it, but I'd also very much like to discuss the role of 'volunteer' leaders, especially for club outings.

Hi Alll
I know that my responce is not about club outings but it is a little similar.

I take a group of mates on a yearly winter Hike .It is now in its 10th year. Something that I decided to do to encourage my mates to experience the mountains and push their comfort zones. By putting the hike together and being the most experienced person I take the resposibility to make sure that the hike is properly planned and organized from start to finish. i thoroughly enjoy doing it but it can some with its consequences if something goes badly wrong. i really try and make sure that I look at all eventualities so that if it does go wrong I know what to do next. i even try and do the route as a day walk a week or two weeks before the Winter Hike so that in my mind it will be safe, doable and enjoyable for all my mates. A great excuse to get into the mountains and keep ones fitness up.

An example of this was my last winter hike. My intended weekend route was:
Friday 12pm to 5Pm: Cathedral Peak - To where contour joins Xeni River
Saturday 7am to 4-5pm Xeni River Cockade Pass- Lower Ndumeni Dome Caves.
Sunday 8am to 2-3pm Camel Pass Cathedral Peak.

On my day walk I realized my group would take time to get up Cockade Pass and still have enough time to get close to OP Pass and Camel looked to dodgie for me and some of the more inexperienced group members. So realized this was not going to be an option.
I also realized that doing Organ Pipes, Old Fire Look out and Mikes Pass would be too long for a Sunday walk out with my mates would have hated me.

So my next route option was (some of the party had booked Cathedral Peak for Sunday night so I could not change the location)

Friday 12pm to 5Pm: Cathedral Peak - To where contour joins Xeni River
Saturday 7am to 4-5pm: Xeni River Cockade Pass -Camp on Escarpment below Cockade Pass
Sunday 8am to 2-3pm Tsekesteke Pass - Cathedral Peak

This route option was much more chilled and relaxed interns of distance

My point is; as you guys all know, is that if you are taking anybody up know what you are doing and role play in your mind situations and scenarios that could occur so that you can act decisively if they occur. Especially if the group is big.

The way I do it is probably an over kill but it works for me and I get to enjoy the hike a lot more.

On my day walks the situation is different because I go with some experienced level headed guys and they know the play when we do new pass or section of the berg. They are fit, resourceful, calm and the leadership responsibilities are shared where we pool our knowledge and experience checking routes or best options as we go along. So if something happens the best plan of action is put into place.


Just my thoughts. Hope it aids the discussion.
Regards
Selous

In the interim while we wait for the moderators to move the posts from Dragon's Wrath to a new thread, why don't we start discussing the topic on a separate thread.

joshilewis wrote: Perhaps a thread split is in order?
I hope the school has good liability insurance, I believe they are in for it.
It astounds me how people misunderstand the legal consequences of their leadership and decisions.
(I qualified as a nature guide and almost qualified as a white-water guide)

Please elaborate on what you mean. Civil liability would presumably be under delict, but for that they would have to prove negligence or intent. Maybe an argument of Tseketseke Pass being a poor choice of pass would hold some validity, but the incident was not necessarily related to the reasons why a reasonable person would not choose this pass for a school trip (i.e. that the approach is overgrown and the pass is really difficult).

Seeing as I have only studied delict at a commercial law 1st year level (i.e. law for non-law students), I am by no means an expert on the topic. But I don't see the actual link between civil liability and such an event.

kbresler wrote: To legally guide groups in the High Berg (above 2400amsl) you need to hold an AML.

This is not true and statements such as this need to be challenged to keep our sport as deregulated as possible.

This statement should be: To legally guide groups in the High Berg (above 2400amsl) for remuneration you need to hold an AML.

Leading a private trip with friends or a club trip for club members, in which case the club needs to make sure that a proper indemnity has been signed by the member or visitor acknowledging the risks involved, the participants engage freely and I believe that it would be extremely difficult to prove liability in the case of an accident. However if the accident is as a result of negligence on the part of the leader, then obviously there could be legal recourse. The tricky bit can be proving negligence when the leader is responsible and takes all due care.

Where minors are involved it is much more tricky. To be safe one should always insist that the parent or guardian of a minor accompany them on the trip. It passes some of the responsibility back to the parent. However once again the leader must not act in a negligent way.

[NB I am do not have any legal training; this is just what I have picked up listening to very well qualified and experienced legal professionals.]