The Need for Speed
06 Nov 2015 13:15 #65687
by ASL #Bivak
The Need for Speed was created by ASL #Bivak
I love speed. It gets me to more high and beautiful places and allows me to spend more time there...
Anyone who has been doing a lot of Youtube in relation to Mountain Sports will know there has been a revolution in climbing and running which has peaked (hehe..) with Uli Steck doing Annapurna in 10 hours and Kilian Jornet running up and down big faces in the Alps.
So I got a bit jealous watching Uli running on his crampons! This also started me thinking about my training and I am testing some new techniques that I thought I would share and maybe get some feedback on.
As an ex racing cyclist with a coach I had some stuff I used to do that I though I could borrow from. In particular there is a measure called Continuous Power which can be used of any distance travelled.
CP5 for example is the Average Kilowatts Power a rider can generate at max effort over a 5km ride.
I converted this to a model I can easily use for Mountain Train that enables me to measure effort and improvement. To keep it simple (as I don't have a power-meter fitted to my butt) I use speed as the measure of Performance over Distance in KM's. This means we need the other parameters to be more or less equal so I use Percentage of bodyweight carried. Again for Simplicity and referencability I only use lightweight at 15% (=12kg) of my weight and heavyweigth at 20% (16kg) of my weight. This would allow 2 or more "athletes" of different size and weight to compare their efforts.
Hope this is making sense?! Now to give an example of this weeks training I started with a 12kg pack and walked a distance of 8km in 1 hour 5 min. I then did a 6km route in 40min and then again in 38min. NB. Gradient is a big variable, especially with weight on your back so I estimate the impact of both. In this can less than 20% of the route has a gradient between 3 to 5%. In the cycling world all CP testing was on flat gradients and hill training was specific to hill length and average gradient so we could add this as another training dimension.
So why bother? Comparison to yourself and others lifts the game when it comes to training and also allows you to assess your own development and preparation for any specific planned effort.
PS. For an steep pass there is a calculation of 100m up = 1km which can be used to integrate the calculations but I haven't given that much thought yet.
Any thoughts and would be appreciated?! I used to just run but carrying a pack hurts if you don't do it often enough and I also find power to be important for moving fast in mountains. It's early day but so far I do feel "stronger" and it's interest to see how fast you can move with a pack on...
Anyone who has been doing a lot of Youtube in relation to Mountain Sports will know there has been a revolution in climbing and running which has peaked (hehe..) with Uli Steck doing Annapurna in 10 hours and Kilian Jornet running up and down big faces in the Alps.
So I got a bit jealous watching Uli running on his crampons! This also started me thinking about my training and I am testing some new techniques that I thought I would share and maybe get some feedback on.
As an ex racing cyclist with a coach I had some stuff I used to do that I though I could borrow from. In particular there is a measure called Continuous Power which can be used of any distance travelled.
CP5 for example is the Average Kilowatts Power a rider can generate at max effort over a 5km ride.
I converted this to a model I can easily use for Mountain Train that enables me to measure effort and improvement. To keep it simple (as I don't have a power-meter fitted to my butt) I use speed as the measure of Performance over Distance in KM's. This means we need the other parameters to be more or less equal so I use Percentage of bodyweight carried. Again for Simplicity and referencability I only use lightweight at 15% (=12kg) of my weight and heavyweigth at 20% (16kg) of my weight. This would allow 2 or more "athletes" of different size and weight to compare their efforts.
Hope this is making sense?! Now to give an example of this weeks training I started with a 12kg pack and walked a distance of 8km in 1 hour 5 min. I then did a 6km route in 40min and then again in 38min. NB. Gradient is a big variable, especially with weight on your back so I estimate the impact of both. In this can less than 20% of the route has a gradient between 3 to 5%. In the cycling world all CP testing was on flat gradients and hill training was specific to hill length and average gradient so we could add this as another training dimension.
So why bother? Comparison to yourself and others lifts the game when it comes to training and also allows you to assess your own development and preparation for any specific planned effort.
PS. For an steep pass there is a calculation of 100m up = 1km which can be used to integrate the calculations but I haven't given that much thought yet.
Any thoughts and would be appreciated?! I used to just run but carrying a pack hurts if you don't do it often enough and I also find power to be important for moving fast in mountains. It's early day but so far I do feel "stronger" and it's interest to see how fast you can move with a pack on...
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06 Nov 2015 14:30 #65688
by biomech
Replied by biomech on topic The Need for Speed
I suppose the key is to try and keep the impact of the estimations on the validity of the comparability of data you collect to a minimum. As I see it, this would mean training in a variety of contexts and recording all the data, but periodically coming back to that same weight and route (or an increased weight on the same route) and time yourself accordingly, making those the benchmarks.
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06 Nov 2015 15:42 #65689
by ASL #Bivak
Replied by ASL #Bivak on topic The Need for Speed
agreed.. keep it simple is best I think. I'm quite goal orientated so it's fun to see how many minutes I can take of my 6km route and whether I can do 10kph over 6km with a 12kg load.
A standard could be that your Lightweight (15% bodyweight) Performance at 5km is 9kph. I think this is a good measure because you could use it to estimate time requirements for distances on a map too. You could even plan according to your current fitness levels if you are monitor your KPH at various distances...cool stuff
A standard could be that your Lightweight (15% bodyweight) Performance at 5km is 9kph. I think this is a good measure because you could use it to estimate time requirements for distances on a map too. You could even plan according to your current fitness levels if you are monitor your KPH at various distances...cool stuff
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06 Nov 2015 17:29 - 06 Nov 2015 17:31 #65691
by Stijn
Replied by Stijn on topic The Need for Speed
Personally, if you'd prefer to do walking training with a loaded pack, I'd recommend focussing on hills or steps. The Westcliff stairs are perfect for this... 50m ascent per rep over a 270m distance.
The thing is, once you're at a certain level of fitness (which you're easily at already), it's not your cardio fitness that is going to be a limiting factor on the flats (unless you run). It's the aches, pains and muscle fatigue that will slow you down after an extended period. But as soon as you hit a hill, fitness definitely plays a role. Stair reps with a loaded pack would work very well to build leg strength, fitness and body conditioning.
So I'd mix it up: run without a pack on flatter or undulating routes (no such thing as flat in Joburg) but make sure you're doing at least a weekly session of hill/stairs reps with a pack on.
Or better yet, follow Ghaz's example and go to the Berg every weekend!
The thing is, once you're at a certain level of fitness (which you're easily at already), it's not your cardio fitness that is going to be a limiting factor on the flats (unless you run). It's the aches, pains and muscle fatigue that will slow you down after an extended period. But as soon as you hit a hill, fitness definitely plays a role. Stair reps with a loaded pack would work very well to build leg strength, fitness and body conditioning.
So I'd mix it up: run without a pack on flatter or undulating routes (no such thing as flat in Joburg) but make sure you're doing at least a weekly session of hill/stairs reps with a pack on.
Or better yet, follow Ghaz's example and go to the Berg every weekend!
Last edit: 06 Nov 2015 17:31 by Stijn.
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06 Nov 2015 20:11 #65693
by ASL #Bivak
Replied by ASL #Bivak on topic The Need for Speed
mmm... How did I know that you would say that!
Essentially a hill is a hill and I love going up them more than anyone I know. In cycling the real climbers are born more than made. I have always been faster on a hill than the flats comparatively so I have to train my flat speed more.
All that said I'm finding the big difference is power rather than speed. I'm able to move at around 10kph with 12kg's which is not really walking anymore. My thought is simple.. if I continue to condition myself in this way I will increase my ability to cover ground in the mountains.
To my surprise, I quite enjoy it too...
Essentially a hill is a hill and I love going up them more than anyone I know. In cycling the real climbers are born more than made. I have always been faster on a hill than the flats comparatively so I have to train my flat speed more.
All that said I'm finding the big difference is power rather than speed. I'm able to move at around 10kph with 12kg's which is not really walking anymore. My thought is simple.. if I continue to condition myself in this way I will increase my ability to cover ground in the mountains.
To my surprise, I quite enjoy it too...
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30 Nov 2015 06:23 #66001
by ASL #Bivak
Replied by ASL #Bivak on topic The Need for Speed
So another week and a bit more feedback on this approach..
The hill work does work and overall there is a significant effect on core strength which also has improved my running without a pack far more than I anticipated. I have always struggled to get my core strength to keep up with my legs and tend to develop injuries so this is a real benefit.
Using another cycling training approach I'm doing 4 runs with a pack as base runs and power development then the 5th run is fast. My technique has improved in that I'm running from the core not just the legs and strength and hill climbing pace is noticeably improved. Oh and I like running in the rain now that summer is here
The hill work does work and overall there is a significant effect on core strength which also has improved my running without a pack far more than I anticipated. I have always struggled to get my core strength to keep up with my legs and tend to develop injuries so this is a real benefit.
Using another cycling training approach I'm doing 4 runs with a pack as base runs and power development then the 5th run is fast. My technique has improved in that I'm running from the core not just the legs and strength and hill climbing pace is noticeably improved. Oh and I like running in the rain now that summer is here
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30 Nov 2015 10:18 #66004
by AndrewP
Replied by AndrewP on topic The Need for Speed
I also recommend lots of hill work. Your speed on a hill is the biggest difference you can get due to fitness. I get bored too easily to do much work at west cliff steps but admit they are excellent training due to the variability of their steepness.
I have never tried to equate 100m to 1km. On big hills I ignore distance and measure my altitude gain instead. On a really big hill such as a pass, I find that it takes me an average of 10min per 100m gained.
I have never tried to equate 100m to 1km. On big hills I ignore distance and measure my altitude gain instead. On a really big hill such as a pass, I find that it takes me an average of 10min per 100m gained.
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30 Nov 2015 13:35 #66006
by ASL #Bivak
Replied by ASL #Bivak on topic The Need for Speed
I think I'm more stupid than you as I don't mind doing steps but I do find it harsh on the knees. I also live on the north end of Rivonia Rd so it's a bit far for daily training purposes.
What you are saying is interesting though.. by adding a 12kg pack I lose at least 5 kph but I am definitely increasing my hill climbing pace with or without a pack with this form of training. In terms of with the pack I'm just getting more used to it and feel stronger. Without it feels like getting set free to run away...basic resistance theory
What you are saying is interesting though.. by adding a 12kg pack I lose at least 5 kph but I am definitely increasing my hill climbing pace with or without a pack with this form of training. In terms of with the pack I'm just getting more used to it and feel stronger. Without it feels like getting set free to run away...basic resistance theory
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01 Dec 2015 12:37 #66010
by Coeta
Replied by Coeta on topic The Need for Speed
Just a sideline question from Mr New To This - The Westcliff is at 67 Jan Smuts Avenue, Johannesburg? Also known as Four Seasons?
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01 Dec 2015 14:01 #66011
by Stijn
Replied by Stijn on topic The Need for Speed
Yes, that's the Westcliff Hotel. If you go just past the hotel off Jan Smuts to Wexford Ave, you will find the start of the steps running all the way up to Woolston Rd.
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