The High Ground
06 Apr 2016 02:12 #67656
by intrepid
Take nothing but litter, leave nothing but a cleaner Drakensberg.
The High Ground was created by intrepid
The title of this post was just a more eloquent way of formally introducing an initiative which has emerged and evolved, and one which even now continues to evolve. It concerns the summits of the Maloti-Drakensberg, which, in spite of all the collective passion and knowledge of the Drakensberg we have here, remains a concept which is enigmatic, shrouded, ignored, not fully understood, and even debated on the bits we do know. And as many studies in various fields will often show, the more you know, the more your realise that which you don't know.
The concept of Drakensberg summits most often comes up in connection with a reference that is often used on this forum, namely "the Khulus". The history and technicalities of what the Khulus are all about is not my direct concern with this post. Rather, this post is to introduce an initiative which has grown out of a common interest in the Khulus by members of this forum. A group of us, through personal pursuits in the Berg and a lot of email chats, have formalised and pooled our information and ideas, with the intention of producing an end result that properly and adequately recognises the summits of the Drakensberg, inspiring an appreciation that they deserve. In trying to thrash out what a Khulu is and what peaks should have this title, we have uncovered more than we initially bargained for. It isn't simply a question of what a Khulu is - more questions arise when you start asking that initial question. What is a peak? What is a summit? What do we do with all the peaks in Lesotho? To name a few.
We would like to table this initiative and open it up to the community. These concepts and questions belong to all of us to delve into ultimately. And with the capacity of this forum now to catalise such projects, and to bring people together to work on them - instead of having a scattering of individuals and groups - we hope to ultimately get to a place where we can agree on and feel an ownership and pride over the peaks of our Drakensberg. As it is, currently we do not even have a properly accepted, formal list of "South Africa's highest peaks", or "the highest peaks of the Maloti-Drakensberg" - the lists that are out there differ from each other, many peaks are surprisingly overlooked, and a large portion do not have formal names (some don't have names at all!). Wouldn't it great if we could get to a place where we can say with certainty, "Here is a definite list of summits and peaks that we have here in our Drakensberg!", or, "Our top ten peaks? This is them!" Sometimes the word "conquering" is used when talking about mountains, but ultimately we only want to inspire a recognition and pride over our mountains with this. We acknowledge that these are all just lenses through which we, as man, study that which surrounds us. It is we who need to solve these questions for ourselves, the mountains have no need for them. It is however in the grappling of these questions that we discover them more, appreciate them more, and hopefully ultimately look after them more.
This group I have referred to currently consists of tonymarshall, ghaznavid, AndrewP and myself. Our work and discussions are by means of an email chat group. That we decided to keep the bulk of this off-forum had a bit to do with the history of how this evolved. It is also very much a work in progress, experimental, often messy, and can get extremely technical, which doesn't necessarily make for good forum material, especially for a topic which does not currently enjoy very wide interest. We have grown into an active work group, rather than a discussion group. We fully believe that this belongs to everyone however, and that many aspects and details should be openly discussed on this forum. We believe that broad consensus and common understanding should be reached with the entire community - and not just those who participate on this forum, but including other organisations and individuals who may have an interest, and who have an active knowledge of the Drakensberg. We would like to introduce our findings and our ideas thus far, putting forward some key questions and issues that need to be worked through. We would also like to extend an invitation to anyone to join our work group. Anyone who is eager to be actively involved is more than welcome to join - in fact we need more help!
Subject to change, the following defines more specifics of what we are trying to achieve at the current time:
1. Work with the Khulu concept, re-shaping it where appropriate, in order to mature the idea and bring it to a wider acceptance and appreciation.
2. Create useful and robust definitions, terms and criteria for describing and distinguishing peaks, summits and Khulus.
3. Incorporate the greater context of the entire Maloti-Drakensberg area, with summits in Lesotho that are significant to the Drakensberg escarpment, with the hope that this will lay the foundation for later work on Lesotho summits and the "Kgolo" concept.
4. Compile a comprehensive list of relevant Drakensberg summits, complete with categorisation and technical data.
5. Catalyze a broader appreciation, understanding and participation in the pursuit of Drakensberg summits.
6. Lay the foundation for the recognition and naming of significant peaks that have no official names, and suggest colloquial or temporary names for all recognized, unnamed summits.
There will be much more to follow naturally, this being only an initial post to open this up to everyone.
The concept of Drakensberg summits most often comes up in connection with a reference that is often used on this forum, namely "the Khulus". The history and technicalities of what the Khulus are all about is not my direct concern with this post. Rather, this post is to introduce an initiative which has grown out of a common interest in the Khulus by members of this forum. A group of us, through personal pursuits in the Berg and a lot of email chats, have formalised and pooled our information and ideas, with the intention of producing an end result that properly and adequately recognises the summits of the Drakensberg, inspiring an appreciation that they deserve. In trying to thrash out what a Khulu is and what peaks should have this title, we have uncovered more than we initially bargained for. It isn't simply a question of what a Khulu is - more questions arise when you start asking that initial question. What is a peak? What is a summit? What do we do with all the peaks in Lesotho? To name a few.
We would like to table this initiative and open it up to the community. These concepts and questions belong to all of us to delve into ultimately. And with the capacity of this forum now to catalise such projects, and to bring people together to work on them - instead of having a scattering of individuals and groups - we hope to ultimately get to a place where we can agree on and feel an ownership and pride over the peaks of our Drakensberg. As it is, currently we do not even have a properly accepted, formal list of "South Africa's highest peaks", or "the highest peaks of the Maloti-Drakensberg" - the lists that are out there differ from each other, many peaks are surprisingly overlooked, and a large portion do not have formal names (some don't have names at all!). Wouldn't it great if we could get to a place where we can say with certainty, "Here is a definite list of summits and peaks that we have here in our Drakensberg!", or, "Our top ten peaks? This is them!" Sometimes the word "conquering" is used when talking about mountains, but ultimately we only want to inspire a recognition and pride over our mountains with this. We acknowledge that these are all just lenses through which we, as man, study that which surrounds us. It is we who need to solve these questions for ourselves, the mountains have no need for them. It is however in the grappling of these questions that we discover them more, appreciate them more, and hopefully ultimately look after them more.
This group I have referred to currently consists of tonymarshall, ghaznavid, AndrewP and myself. Our work and discussions are by means of an email chat group. That we decided to keep the bulk of this off-forum had a bit to do with the history of how this evolved. It is also very much a work in progress, experimental, often messy, and can get extremely technical, which doesn't necessarily make for good forum material, especially for a topic which does not currently enjoy very wide interest. We have grown into an active work group, rather than a discussion group. We fully believe that this belongs to everyone however, and that many aspects and details should be openly discussed on this forum. We believe that broad consensus and common understanding should be reached with the entire community - and not just those who participate on this forum, but including other organisations and individuals who may have an interest, and who have an active knowledge of the Drakensberg. We would like to introduce our findings and our ideas thus far, putting forward some key questions and issues that need to be worked through. We would also like to extend an invitation to anyone to join our work group. Anyone who is eager to be actively involved is more than welcome to join - in fact we need more help!
Subject to change, the following defines more specifics of what we are trying to achieve at the current time:
1. Work with the Khulu concept, re-shaping it where appropriate, in order to mature the idea and bring it to a wider acceptance and appreciation.
2. Create useful and robust definitions, terms and criteria for describing and distinguishing peaks, summits and Khulus.
3. Incorporate the greater context of the entire Maloti-Drakensberg area, with summits in Lesotho that are significant to the Drakensberg escarpment, with the hope that this will lay the foundation for later work on Lesotho summits and the "Kgolo" concept.
4. Compile a comprehensive list of relevant Drakensberg summits, complete with categorisation and technical data.
5. Catalyze a broader appreciation, understanding and participation in the pursuit of Drakensberg summits.
6. Lay the foundation for the recognition and naming of significant peaks that have no official names, and suggest colloquial or temporary names for all recognized, unnamed summits.
There will be much more to follow naturally, this being only an initial post to open this up to everyone.
Take nothing but litter, leave nothing but a cleaner Drakensberg.
The following user(s) said Thank You: DeonS, ghaznavid, tonymarshall, kbresler, AndrewP, supertramp, andrew r, saros, biomech, Hobbitt
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06 Apr 2016 10:22 #67674
by BobbyStanton
Replied by BobbyStanton on topic The High Ground
Hi Chris
I would be very willing to join your group if you need a technical person. I have considerable mapping and GIS resources in the form of spatial data and applications.
I believe that it is a waste of time defining the Khulus in terms of Chris Murch's criteria. He did not have the modern mapping tools we have today and could not see all of the points 3000m and over. There could be a thousand of them in the Berg and many more further back in Lesotho.
The issue of peak prominence makes it even more difficult to define the Khulus as the top of the escarpment undulates a great deal. Several years ago I tried to calculate the prominence of the higher peaks but the only software at the time, call WinProm, was held by Edward Earl in the USA and one would have to send him all your prepared data and he would carry out the calculations. This proved unworkable and there were also differences in the digital elevation models we used. I did not follow this through, but there may be newer software available now.
I believe a greater height should be used as the cut-off. Perhaps 3300m, although this is an odd number. Some years ago the Mountain Backpackers held a competition to climb the 3300m Khulus in the fastest time. We used a list of the 27 highest peaks which are all in SA, plus Thabana Ntlenyana.
I have a considerable list of tracklogs covering much of the Berg, but it is not comprehensive. For the past few years the current GIS software has enabled one to trace paths off high resolution satellite imagery and then export the line to GPS formats. I did so last week to identify Around-the-Corner Pass. This is one example of what can be done.
I hope I can be of some assistance in your new project.
Bobby Stanton
I would be very willing to join your group if you need a technical person. I have considerable mapping and GIS resources in the form of spatial data and applications.
I believe that it is a waste of time defining the Khulus in terms of Chris Murch's criteria. He did not have the modern mapping tools we have today and could not see all of the points 3000m and over. There could be a thousand of them in the Berg and many more further back in Lesotho.
The issue of peak prominence makes it even more difficult to define the Khulus as the top of the escarpment undulates a great deal. Several years ago I tried to calculate the prominence of the higher peaks but the only software at the time, call WinProm, was held by Edward Earl in the USA and one would have to send him all your prepared data and he would carry out the calculations. This proved unworkable and there were also differences in the digital elevation models we used. I did not follow this through, but there may be newer software available now.
I believe a greater height should be used as the cut-off. Perhaps 3300m, although this is an odd number. Some years ago the Mountain Backpackers held a competition to climb the 3300m Khulus in the fastest time. We used a list of the 27 highest peaks which are all in SA, plus Thabana Ntlenyana.
I have a considerable list of tracklogs covering much of the Berg, but it is not comprehensive. For the past few years the current GIS software has enabled one to trace paths off high resolution satellite imagery and then export the line to GPS formats. I did so last week to identify Around-the-Corner Pass. This is one example of what can be done.
I hope I can be of some assistance in your new project.
Bobby Stanton
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06 Apr 2016 10:27 #67676
by BobbyStanton
Replied by BobbyStanton on topic The High Ground
I forgot to mention that I have started a project to realign the Lesotho border on the Berg side, using the watershed. It was originally defined on 1:250000 scale maps and when the 1:50000 series were drawn it was simply copied across, hence the huge errors.
Bobby
Bobby
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06 Apr 2016 10:40 #67678
by ghaznavid
Replied by ghaznavid on topic The High Ground
Hi Bobby
We have actually been manually calculating topographical prominence - we know handheld GPS devices aren't as accurate as one would like, but they do still give a reasonably good idea. Most of the GPS devices used have barometric altimeters, and for lots of the summits we have data readings from more than one of us - e.g. for Carbineer's point (which we were convinced would only have about 20m prominence), Tony, Andrew and I have all measured around 54m - Hobbit even double checked my reading and came out at 51m. The theory goes that you can reduce the risk of less accurate data from these devices by taking a larger sample.
For the record - the website peakbagger.com allows you to add summits, it then calculates the rough topographical prominence based on contours and indicates the key saddle. We haven't really used this tool as it is quite time consuming to capture the peaks manually and no batch upload system exists - but it could be useful going forward.
We have actually been manually calculating topographical prominence - we know handheld GPS devices aren't as accurate as one would like, but they do still give a reasonably good idea. Most of the GPS devices used have barometric altimeters, and for lots of the summits we have data readings from more than one of us - e.g. for Carbineer's point (which we were convinced would only have about 20m prominence), Tony, Andrew and I have all measured around 54m - Hobbit even double checked my reading and came out at 51m. The theory goes that you can reduce the risk of less accurate data from these devices by taking a larger sample.
For the record - the website peakbagger.com allows you to add summits, it then calculates the rough topographical prominence based on contours and indicates the key saddle. We haven't really used this tool as it is quite time consuming to capture the peaks manually and no batch upload system exists - but it could be useful going forward.
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07 Apr 2016 04:28 - 07 Apr 2016 04:50 #67706
by intrepid
Take nothing but litter, leave nothing but a cleaner Drakensberg.
Replied by intrepid on topic The High Ground
Bobby your participation and expertise are certainly very welcome.
We do give credit to Murch's work and mention it often, as it was the pioneering study on this that we are aware of (there may well be more of a history here). But his criteria were definitely not water-tight or robust enough to leave his list unchallenged. And the closer you look at Drakensberg summits the more it becomes apparent that there are more problems with his list than simply the criteria he used. So while we respect his work, we definitely agree that we cannot use his criteria and believe we can come up with revised, more robust, and less subjective ones. Prominence is definitely a concept which has featured strongly in our discussions. Likewise a closer look at the Lesotho border/watershed is also providing some very interesting findings (though it is making the work somewhat more complex), so your work on revising the border on the maps is certainly going to be helpful.
My feeling currently, is that one single list of peaks is not going to be fully representative of the Maloti-Drakensberg. It remains to be seen, but it may well be a case of needing to look at it multi-dimensionally, bringing out different lists to highlight various aspects. One such example is a list of South Africa's highest summits vs a list of high peaks or summits of the entire Maloti-Drakensberg. It could be that some summits will be listed under the first, but will not make the second list due to being overshadowed by a Lesotho neighbour that makes it less peak-like, if that makes sense.
We do give credit to Murch's work and mention it often, as it was the pioneering study on this that we are aware of (there may well be more of a history here). But his criteria were definitely not water-tight or robust enough to leave his list unchallenged. And the closer you look at Drakensberg summits the more it becomes apparent that there are more problems with his list than simply the criteria he used. So while we respect his work, we definitely agree that we cannot use his criteria and believe we can come up with revised, more robust, and less subjective ones. Prominence is definitely a concept which has featured strongly in our discussions. Likewise a closer look at the Lesotho border/watershed is also providing some very interesting findings (though it is making the work somewhat more complex), so your work on revising the border on the maps is certainly going to be helpful.
My feeling currently, is that one single list of peaks is not going to be fully representative of the Maloti-Drakensberg. It remains to be seen, but it may well be a case of needing to look at it multi-dimensionally, bringing out different lists to highlight various aspects. One such example is a list of South Africa's highest summits vs a list of high peaks or summits of the entire Maloti-Drakensberg. It could be that some summits will be listed under the first, but will not make the second list due to being overshadowed by a Lesotho neighbour that makes it less peak-like, if that makes sense.
Take nothing but litter, leave nothing but a cleaner Drakensberg.
Last edit: 07 Apr 2016 04:50 by intrepid.
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07 Apr 2016 10:08 #67716
by AndrewP
Replied by AndrewP on topic The High Ground
I agree with Intrepid's comment about the possibility of multiple lists.
Once you get into the hills, it is amazing how many of the peaks on Murch's khulu list are overshadowed by a higher neighbouring peak that is in Lesotho, but on the same ridge line, or are alternatively just on the wrong side of the border to count as being in South Africa. That said, his list is pretty good.
I see a few interesting options:
- we skip the politics entirely and come with a cross-border list. For this list, we probably want a fairly "tough" criteria to make it onto the list simply so that we have 100-200 peaks instead of 1000 peaks
- the lists of hghest peaks in SA / Lesotho are then most likely subsets of the above list
- we could possibly leave Murch's list exactly as it is (I think this is an idea worth considering at least) or we could try to tidy it up using similar concept to the above list, but maybe with more lenient criteria
I generally feel that we want a list of peaks in each list that are "proud" peaks. Something you are glad you put in the effort to get up. And, I also feel that the lists will ideally have a suitably small number of peaks on that it feels achievable if you put in some hard work, but that is also long enough that you need to put in effort over a significant time period to get there.
Once you get into the hills, it is amazing how many of the peaks on Murch's khulu list are overshadowed by a higher neighbouring peak that is in Lesotho, but on the same ridge line, or are alternatively just on the wrong side of the border to count as being in South Africa. That said, his list is pretty good.
I see a few interesting options:
- we skip the politics entirely and come with a cross-border list. For this list, we probably want a fairly "tough" criteria to make it onto the list simply so that we have 100-200 peaks instead of 1000 peaks
- the lists of hghest peaks in SA / Lesotho are then most likely subsets of the above list
- we could possibly leave Murch's list exactly as it is (I think this is an idea worth considering at least) or we could try to tidy it up using similar concept to the above list, but maybe with more lenient criteria
I generally feel that we want a list of peaks in each list that are "proud" peaks. Something you are glad you put in the effort to get up. And, I also feel that the lists will ideally have a suitably small number of peaks on that it feels achievable if you put in some hard work, but that is also long enough that you need to put in effort over a significant time period to get there.
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07 Apr 2016 10:45 #67717
by Coeta
Replied by Coeta on topic The High Ground
Some questions:
Are there plans to advertise (for lack of a better term) this endeavour to the broader SA hiking\climbing\mountaineering community? If only for the record. Unlikely as it seem, there might be an unknown parallel project of similar scope? (Devil's advocate)
How do the panel of members foresee the naming of the unnamed to work? If recent history is anything to go by, emotions and egos would have to be traversed.
All said and done, I think Chris Murch would encourage and approve!
Are there plans to advertise (for lack of a better term) this endeavour to the broader SA hiking\climbing\mountaineering community? If only for the record. Unlikely as it seem, there might be an unknown parallel project of similar scope? (Devil's advocate)
How do the panel of members foresee the naming of the unnamed to work? If recent history is anything to go by, emotions and egos would have to be traversed.
All said and done, I think Chris Murch would encourage and approve!
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07 Apr 2016 11:25 #67719
by biomech
Replied by biomech on topic The High Ground
This is a great initiative. I think Andrew's sentiment about the list being both long and short enough to be encouraging is spot on.
Whilst I am not a khulu bagger (yet), I can definitely appreciate the pursuit and one does feel a sense of achievement when one does happen to do some bagging.
It is useful to understand how prominence is defined and calculated, as opposed to, say, isolation. I spoke to Ghaz about it when we hiked together in March and he seemed to have a good explanation. Hopefully the results of this initiative would be able to clearly articulate these concepts for all interested parties.
I look forward to more developments and to participating in any way that is useful.
Whilst I am not a khulu bagger (yet), I can definitely appreciate the pursuit and one does feel a sense of achievement when one does happen to do some bagging.
It is useful to understand how prominence is defined and calculated, as opposed to, say, isolation. I spoke to Ghaz about it when we hiked together in March and he seemed to have a good explanation. Hopefully the results of this initiative would be able to clearly articulate these concepts for all interested parties.
I look forward to more developments and to participating in any way that is useful.
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07 Apr 2016 16:32 - 07 Apr 2016 16:35 #67728
by Stijn
Replied by Stijn on topic The High Ground
Thanks for the effort guys - I appreciate the detailed approach you're taking on this.
One suggestion from my side (and please take it constructively), is that a fairly significant prominence should be considered for at least one of the lists. I am a fairly keen peak-bagger (although am certainly taking it a little less seriously these days) and I found that the Khulu concept never really appealed to me due to the large number of very arbitrary lumps that end up getting Khulu status by using the 50m prominence rule. I'd suggest that even if the prominence were to be increased to 100m, there would be a huge reduction in the number of Khulus, but an overall increase in their quality and would make each ascent more worthwhile. Or perhaps there is some other factor that can help eliminate some of the more arbitrary summits (very subjective, I know!).
Strangely enough, I find there is more of an appeal for me to climb something which has a name on the maps in the Berg. I realise that this is very relative to the map being considered and other historical factors, but on the whole, something which has been given a name tends to be a fairly prominent summit when viewed from at least one direction.
Feel free to include me in these discussions if this little rant has nominated me by default...
One suggestion from my side (and please take it constructively), is that a fairly significant prominence should be considered for at least one of the lists. I am a fairly keen peak-bagger (although am certainly taking it a little less seriously these days) and I found that the Khulu concept never really appealed to me due to the large number of very arbitrary lumps that end up getting Khulu status by using the 50m prominence rule. I'd suggest that even if the prominence were to be increased to 100m, there would be a huge reduction in the number of Khulus, but an overall increase in their quality and would make each ascent more worthwhile. Or perhaps there is some other factor that can help eliminate some of the more arbitrary summits (very subjective, I know!).
Strangely enough, I find there is more of an appeal for me to climb something which has a name on the maps in the Berg. I realise that this is very relative to the map being considered and other historical factors, but on the whole, something which has been given a name tends to be a fairly prominent summit when viewed from at least one direction.
Feel free to include me in these discussions if this little rant has nominated me by default...
Last edit: 07 Apr 2016 16:35 by Stijn.
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07 Apr 2016 18:40 #67733
by AndrewP
Replied by AndrewP on topic The High Ground
The concept of prominence has been brought up a few times lately. I have created a separate topic to explain/discuss it. Hopefully I have explained the concept in an easier fashion than when Ghaz first tried explaining to me.
www.vertical-endeavour.com/forum/40-general-discussion/56051-topographical-prominence-explained.html
www.vertical-endeavour.com/forum/40-general-discussion/56051-topographical-prominence-explained.html
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