Safety and leadership in the Berg

no4stopper wrote: This statement should be: To legally guide groups in the High Berg (above 2400amsl) for remuneration you need to hold an AML.

This is correct...
My apologies for omitting that. I am certainly no expert and as a result don't get paid to enjoy the mountains. As a result it didn't come to mind. Thank you for correcting me.

@domsmooth

Please do as it would be great to have 100% clarity to avoid any future misunderstandings.

domsmooth wrote: Hey. I would double check that statement against the updated UDP WHS management plan.

Sounds dodgy to me that any person can guide people around an area which is known for its ability to kill people!

The UDP WHS Management plan has nothing to do with this!

People driving cars on our roads are known for their ability to kill people. If I offer you a lift in my car for no remuneration must I hold a professional driving permit?
However if I operate a business that derives income from transporting people I had better make sure that my drivers are qualified and properly licensed and I had better have public liability insurance. Similarly mountain guides, charging for their services, need to be qualified.

I repeat from my earlier post that it is important that we do not allow our sport to become over regulated or else every one will need a qualification and you won't be able to plan a trip with your mates and go and enjoy the mountains unless one of you holds a current qualification and willing to take on the responsibility of leading the group.

Lastly qualifications without experience do not guarantee competence. I have seen qualified single pitch supervisors do stupid and dangerous things in rock climbing purely because they lack experience.

I like the idea of keeping it "amateur" and sharing knowledge on what we consider good practice. This way we could look at improving our knowledge and safety even if it's only in terms of leading ourselves better?

I would be interested to know what everyone else considers to qualify someone as an "experienced hiker"?

If you have to ask you will probably never know. Some people seem to be able to assimilate the required knowledge quite naturally and become at home in the wilderness, and are able to remember details about routes and find their way around easily. There are some that can handle any conditions that are thrown at them where others will retreat; eg. this weekend five of our group did all three of the Devil's Knuckles (about 27 km) in the face of a -10C 80km/hr wind while the rest (including myself) retreated in haste back to shelter and comfort.
On the other hand I have met some who have been hiking for dozens of years yet still don't quite know where they are at times. There are also those who are born leaders whom people will follow regardless. Then of course there are the opposites. It takes all sorts.
I believe that the ones who quietly go about their work, and don't try and promote themselves with words but with deeds, are the most effective, and are soon considered 'experienced'. You don't qualify, you earn it.

BobbyStanton wrote: Some people seem to be able to assimilate the required knowledge quite naturally and become at home in the wilderness, and are able to remember details about routes and find their way around easily. There are some that can handle any conditions that are thrown at them where others will retreat; eg. this weekend five of our group did all three of the Devil's Knuckles (about 27 km) in the face of a -10C 80km/hr wind while the rest (including myself) retreated in haste back to shelter and comfort.

Would you not consider an aspect of experience to be able to tell when it is necessary to turn around? I can't remember the name, but I remember reading about a famous mountaineer who turned around just short of the summit of Everest due to concerns of weather - he said something to the effect of "rather come back and do it next time than take an unnecessary risk and die".

BobbyStanton wrote: On the other hand I have met some who have been hiking for dozens of years yet still don't quite know where they are at times. There are also those who are born leaders whom people will follow regardless. Then of course there are the opposites. It takes all sorts.
I believe that the ones who quietly go about their work, and don't try and promote themselves with words but with deeds, are the most effective, and are soon considered 'experienced'. You don't qualify, you earn it.

I agree with the bulk of what you say - but would you not say that it is possible for an experienced hiker to not be a good leader? Perhaps they know the mountains and how to handle situations, but they are not good at monitoring and managing their team.

ghaznavid wrote: I agree with the bulk of what you say - but would you not say that it is possible for an experienced hiker to not be a good leader? Perhaps they know the mountains and how to handle situations, but they are not good at monitoring and managing their team.

Unforunately, I definitely know this to be true, from personal experience. An experienced hiker definitely does guarantee a good leader (and vice versa). A good leader, who may lack experience, or not know the area well, can't ask for advice and delegate to people who know the area better. On a certain trip last year, the leader made extremely questionable decisions. He was leader in name only, and probably should have been called a coordinator or orgniser.

You can't necessarily trust your buddy as a leader only because he has done 30 escarpment hikes in perfect uneventful weather. It is difficult to measure experience. Some people never get experienced and can't be relied on.
Therefore, I don't believe an experienced group of hikers need a dedicated leader. We are not boy scouts.

It is imperative for the whole group to know at all given times where they are and all members should make the decisions together. Experienced hikers have collective experience and I believe all should be consulted and opinions shared. Obviously this only works in small groups.

When I organise hikes with my friends, we determine a suitable route and take it form there. There is no authoritative figure in the group, and every breakfast, lunch and dinner stop we assess our situation and set our goals for the next stop. There is also never a specific person walking in the front of the line. Some people handle hills better, other downhills, some like to carry on at a steady pace and others prefer short bursts and stops. A hike is supposed to be a relaxing affair after all and one of the ways we escape the rules of society.