Emergency bivy protocol

Long Day Walks
In Summer I always have a bivy bag and my wet weather gear that consists of light Capestorm top and pants.

In Winter I always go with at least two other guys and we split a light AR sleeping bag, bivy bag and a down jacket. A bit of an overkill but worth it. I must relate a story that occured on Tsekesteke Pass during a day walk in winter when I get a gap with some photos that could have gone pear shaped if my mate was unable to move. Since that incident I have always carried the above in winter. A little extra weight but piece of mind when things go wrong.

All my gear is always in a light waterproof dry bag.

I feel the berg is too extreme for a space blanket. I would rather rely on the above.
Selous

Sorry Ghaz slightly off the topic

mnt_tiska wrote: When two or more things go wrong, the chances of it being your last ever hike are greatly increased. Some of these things, like a big snowstorm, you should be able to anticipate from the weather forecast. You have to be fairly unlucky for three big things to go wrong together- or else make rushed and poor decisions when one or two big things happen and so invent a third big negative all on your own.

I agree that it can end badly, but as we can see from stories like Naked Mountain and Touching the Void, people have survived stuff way worse than what the Berg could throw at us. Yes these were amazing stories, but it is always good to remember not to ever give up.

Weatherwise, that's often true - but take a case like my speed record attempt on Mafadi last year, Splatacat was mildly dehydrated and wasn't in much of a state to walk at the time, we were in a small overhang and despite there not being any cold front we got a bit of sleet. Although we did have a GPS track of going up the pass, we did have sleeping bags, but no tent.

Although its usually been in my favour, Berg weather forecasts have often been wrong in my experience.

mnt_tiska wrote: I normally take a bivvy bag along and it solves a great range of problems. You can turn a quite wet overhang into something pretty reasonable with one of those. A few times when snow or heavy rain has hit without us having tents, we've just kept on going until we were in shelter. There would have been times when this would not have been possible given who was in the party, but then taking chances with a group that is not fit or particularly strong means that your plans have to be modified to suit the group better - before you set off. Big groups are generally more dangerous in my view.

I do usually have a large bag in my day pack, but it would be torn up quickly on rocks. I will be getting a heavy duty bag liner/emergency bag soon...

I'm starting to wonder if a group over 4 people is safe - every time I have had a big group I have had more issues. 3 seems to be ideal.

Selous wrote: In Winter I always go with at least two other guys and we split a light AR sleeping bag, bivy bag and a down jacket. A bit of an overkill but worth it. I must relate a story that occured on Tsekesteke Pass during a day walk in winter when I get a gap with some photos that could have gone pear shaped if my mate was unable to move. Since that incident I have always carried the above in winter. A little extra weight but piece of mind when things go wrong.

The problem with that is that extra weight slows you down, this could cause you to be in the situation in the first place.

On Judge Pass last year I think our situation was made worse by the extra weight we were carrying (sleeping bags).

Selous wrote: I feel the berg is too extreme for a space blanket. I would rather rely on the above.

It worked for the Messner brothers at 8000m in -30, so it should be more than fine in the Berg. But that is why I'm thinking that trying this within 1km of a carpark may be a good idea. At least that way if something goes wrong I can go back to the car and grab my tent and sleeping bag (if I take them with me I'll probably chicken out).

Selous wrote: Sorry Ghaz slightly off the topic

It's not at all off topic

General reply

Thanks everyone for the input so far, keep the thoughts coming in.

The main reason I am thinking about this is the due to a discussion with Bugs - apparently Gaving Peckham (who has opened over 20 climbing routes in the Berg) has been forced to do an emergency bivy on a narrow ledge over 10 times. Its just a situation where you don't want to be unprepared if it ever happens, irrespective of why you are in that situation - or even if you are hiking and come across a group in a situation like this. But hopefully it's knowledge I'll never need.

On those weather forecasts, they will always be wrong given the way the info gets delivered to the public. A prediction of 16 degrees at noon and a measured temp of 15.9 means the forecast is numerically wrong. The forecast models will miss the odd rain shower, sleet and even perhaps the odd snow shower and in unfavourable conditions, those events can really amp up the peril. But I'm confident the forecast won't miss a great big cold front and ridging high that sticks low cloud and sub-zero temps over the Berg for a day or more.

The business of group size and danger is an interesting one. I don't think I've hiked with more than 4 people before (normally it is 2) but my impression is that people perceive a larger group to be safer, no matter what. And because of that, less experienced people feel safer doing stuff they would never do alone. If they were alone, they would still have to achieve the same things (walk up the same passes, cross the same ridges etc) as they will do in the group setting. The fact that they are in a group cannot fundamentally change what they need to accomplish. As a result accidents involving these members of the group do happen. It is just a logical outcome. Over and above this, on the trips I've done involving 4 people there has been far less focus on the task and a lot more social stuff (I guess that is why people like groups). When I've done solo trips, I've been totally focused almost all of the time. Focus doesn't rule out error but it certainly reduces the likelihood.

viking5 wrote: Brilliant idea to test it out Ghaz!
Let us know the results!

I should rename my profile "Guinea Pig"

I don't know how great second hand experience will be for this one, I see you are from the same city as me - I'm sure we can make room in the car

mnt_tiska wrote: On those weather forecasts, they will always be wrong given the way the info gets delivered to the public. A prediction of 16 degrees at noon and a measured temp of 15.9 means the forecast is numerically wrong. The forecast models will miss the odd rain shower, sleet and even perhaps the odd snow shower and in unfavourable conditions, those events can really amp up the peril. But I'm confident the forecast won't miss a great big cold front and ridging high that sticks low cloud and sub-zero temps over the Berg for a day or more.

Ok, fair enough. Most cases where the forecast has been wrong have had, say 10mm wet volume of snow and basically none has fallen. They are usually within 12 hours on a cold front, and irrespective of snow that will usually bring precipitation and obviously cold air as well.

The thing that has made me wary on weather forecasts with regards to hike planning is the fact that I have often considered canceling hikes due to the forecast - and those cases when I didn't have often been the best hiking conditions I have ever had.

mnt_tiska wrote: The business of group size and danger is an interesting one. I don't think I've hiked with more than 4 people before (normally it is 2) but my impression is that people perceive a larger group to be safer, no matter what. And because of that, less experienced people feel safer doing stuff they would never do alone. If they were alone, they would still have to achieve the same things (walk up the same passes, cross the same ridges etc) as they will do in the group setting. The fact that they are in a group cannot fundamentally change what they need to accomplish. As a result accidents involving these members of the group do happen. It is just a logical outcome. Over and above this, on the trips I've done involving 4 people there has been far less focus on the task and a lot more social stuff (I guess that is why people like groups). When I've done solo trips, I've been totally focused almost all of the time. Focus doesn't rule out error but it certainly reduces the likelihood.

Lets take an example of Lotheni - there have been at least 2 incidents there in the last 2 years. But I don't know that a big group would necessarily help, seeing as one of the attacks above Bannerman Pass many years ago was a really substantial group.

I enjoy teams of 2 or 3. I have lead 2 hikes with a group bigger than 4, North Hlubi Pass with 7 in Feb and that Injisuthi hike a few weeks ago (although I don't know how much, if at all, I was actually in charge of that hike ). The one in Feb worked alright, but Fitness and I had to work off a duel-leader setup. We both knew what the plans were and we basically looked after half of the group each. It was difficult to keep track of everything.

I find with a smaller group it is easier to know how everyone is doing, a group consensus approach can work in this scenario. From a social point of view, aside from the GT, I have always found the social side to be better with a team of 2 or 3. Maybe that's just me

Selous wrote: In Winter I always go with at least two other guys and we split a light AR sleeping bag, bivy bag and a down jacket. A bit of an overkill but worth it. A little extra weight but piece of mind when things go wrong.

I feel the berg is too extreme for a space blanket. I would rather rely on the above.

I also feel you should rather have it than not have it. I choose to go back for more exploration instead of getting stuck and causing a rescue. Call me nervous but collectively I think we have all seen too many things go wrong of which many could have been avoided.

I like the idea of doing low-risk testing like that. I mentioned something similar in the sleeping bag liner thread, about testing stuff at home (on my balcony, during cold nights). I plan to do the same with my tarp-shelter setup (low-risk test).

On that topic, do you think a tarp-shelter (using one or 2 trekking poles) would be an adequate 'replacement' for a bivvy? My (K-Way) poncho weighs about 350g, and the other extra weight would be some guys and pegs, and possibly my space blanket groundsheet. I can rig a decent shelter relatively quickly. The only thing is it wouldn't really protect from running surface water (groundsheet not bathtub).

I like the idea of a bivvy bag, but the expense worries me. How much worse are those emergency bags (K-Way etc)?

I prefer small groups as well. Our group on Ship's Prow in October last year was over 20 very difficult to control things with a group that size.

joshilewis wrote: On that topic, do you think a tarp-shelter (using one or 2 trekking poles) would be an adequate 'replacement' for a bivvy? My (K-Way) poncho weighs about 350g, and the other extra weight would be some guys and pegs, and possibly my space blanket groundsheet. I can rig a decent shelter relatively quickly. The only thing is it wouldn't really protect from running surface water (groundsheet not bathtub).

It might work if there's no wind, I doubt it would hold up in anything above a gentle breeze though. It is something I have also thought about.

You can make a bivy bag out of the material you get at a material shop, but I don't know how light and breathable it would be.

After the inside of my K-Way Treklite went missing on GT last year, I took the outer layer and modified it into an emergency shelter for up to 4 peple (long story on the intended use, but it wasn't for 2000m+). I guess something like that that is rated for heavy weather with a trekking pole as a frame, plus some pegs and guys could hold up - but I'm not confident.

ghaznavid wrote: It might work if there's no wind, I doubt it would hold up in anything above a gentle breeze though. It is something I have also thought about.

The hikers in the US seem to rely on tarp shelters a lot, including in wind, but yeah, testing would be a good idea. There are different pitches though, an A-Frame pitch would be quite wind-stable I think. The bigger worry would be how strong the fabric is I guess.

ghaznavid wrote: You can make a bivy bag out of the material you get at a material shop, but I don't know how light and breathable it would be.

Any material you recommend? Got any designs/patterns/templates?