Emergency bivy protocol
22 Aug 2013 12:26 #58202
by ghaznavid
Replied by ghaznavid on topic Emergency bivy protocol
In my pockets/camera bag (which I rarely take off) I'll usually have:
- a space blanket
- my car keys (in a zip closed pocket)
- my cellphone (which I'm now putting in a bag in case I get wet)
- my GPS
- my camera (a camera can be a safety item - I have used it to navigate in the mist based on photos I took before the mist picked up. The flash with a space blanket can also be used to get mountain rescue's attention in the dark)
- some food (snack stuff that I eat while walking, eg energy bars - not intended as a plan for emergencies, but it could help)
- a space blanket
- my car keys (in a zip closed pocket)
- my cellphone (which I'm now putting in a bag in case I get wet)
- my GPS
- my camera (a camera can be a safety item - I have used it to navigate in the mist based on photos I took before the mist picked up. The flash with a space blanket can also be used to get mountain rescue's attention in the dark)
- some food (snack stuff that I eat while walking, eg energy bars - not intended as a plan for emergencies, but it could help)
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22 Aug 2013 12:53 #58203
by plouw
Replied by plouw on topic Emergency bivy protocol
I agree with Stijn, I would try to get down the mountain asap if not injured and still mobile. A space blanket would just prolong your suffering. You will die if you try to stay put if you are wet in windy, sub-zero temperatures.
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22 Aug 2013 13:03 - 22 Aug 2013 13:04 #58204
by ghaznavid
I agree that you should keep moving, but I don't agree that death is a certainty when you stop moving in such a situation. I know I keep quoting the same story, but remember that the Messner brothers were in -30 in strong winds on snow and ice at 8000m. They had nothing other than the clothes they were wearing - no food, no water, no ropes, nothing. They both survived the night in a space blanket bivy.
In a case such as when you are on a climbing route and get stuck due to a storm, you would not necessarily have an option of turning back. I can't imagine abseiling in a thunderstorm to be terribly safe!
Ps. Brian Godbold was the first man to overnight on the escarpment in winter, and he did this before the invention of sleeping bags. Everyone thought he would die.
Replied by ghaznavid on topic Emergency bivy protocol
plouw wrote: You will die if you try to stay put if you are wet in windy, sub-zero temperatures.
I agree that you should keep moving, but I don't agree that death is a certainty when you stop moving in such a situation. I know I keep quoting the same story, but remember that the Messner brothers were in -30 in strong winds on snow and ice at 8000m. They had nothing other than the clothes they were wearing - no food, no water, no ropes, nothing. They both survived the night in a space blanket bivy.
In a case such as when you are on a climbing route and get stuck due to a storm, you would not necessarily have an option of turning back. I can't imagine abseiling in a thunderstorm to be terribly safe!
Ps. Brian Godbold was the first man to overnight on the escarpment in winter, and he did this before the invention of sleeping bags. Everyone thought he would die.
Last edit: 22 Aug 2013 13:04 by ghaznavid.
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28 Aug 2013 23:10 - 28 Aug 2013 23:20 #58289
by intrepid
Take nothing but litter, leave nothing but a cleaner Drakensberg.
Replied by intrepid on topic Emergency bivy protocol
Interesting to see a topic which produces a lot of discussion in a short space of time.
Does remind me of an incident we had coming back down from a climb up The Pyramid. We got caught in a big thunder storm fairly up, at a very inconvenient spot with very steep slopes. The wind was one of those winds where you can barely walk and talk to each other. The slopes being too wet and slippery, we took shelter in a little notch in the rocks. We thought it would blow over quickly enough. It howled, pelted us with rain and flashed with lightning for almost 3 hours. We were huddled into each other, wearing everything that we had with us to keep warm, helmets included. Most of our stuff was way down in the valley at Tseke Hut. It was December but we were eventually shivering all over our bodies uncontrollably. I was breathing down into my wife's collar down her neck in an attempt to get her shivering under control. Eventually we decided that we couldn't stick it out longer and there was a slight break in the wind, so we headed down, getting back to the hut after 12am (it was long dark already when we continued).
I normally have some sort of big plastic sheet to pull over me and have sat out many storms this way (in the above incident I didn’t have it along). If by any means you can walk out of a situation, even in the dark, and not spend the night, then do so. I agree this is far better. If you are injured or stuck on a climb then you can only hope you have some sort of minimal equipment along (for me its shell clothing and a big plastic sheet, or cut-open bivy bag). I hope I never get be-nighted on a peak. Can't be fun.
Does remind me of an incident we had coming back down from a climb up The Pyramid. We got caught in a big thunder storm fairly up, at a very inconvenient spot with very steep slopes. The wind was one of those winds where you can barely walk and talk to each other. The slopes being too wet and slippery, we took shelter in a little notch in the rocks. We thought it would blow over quickly enough. It howled, pelted us with rain and flashed with lightning for almost 3 hours. We were huddled into each other, wearing everything that we had with us to keep warm, helmets included. Most of our stuff was way down in the valley at Tseke Hut. It was December but we were eventually shivering all over our bodies uncontrollably. I was breathing down into my wife's collar down her neck in an attempt to get her shivering under control. Eventually we decided that we couldn't stick it out longer and there was a slight break in the wind, so we headed down, getting back to the hut after 12am (it was long dark already when we continued).
I normally have some sort of big plastic sheet to pull over me and have sat out many storms this way (in the above incident I didn’t have it along). If by any means you can walk out of a situation, even in the dark, and not spend the night, then do so. I agree this is far better. If you are injured or stuck on a climb then you can only hope you have some sort of minimal equipment along (for me its shell clothing and a big plastic sheet, or cut-open bivy bag). I hope I never get be-nighted on a peak. Can't be fun.
Take nothing but litter, leave nothing but a cleaner Drakensberg.
Last edit: 28 Aug 2013 23:20 by intrepid.
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29 Aug 2013 14:05 #58303
by ASL #Bivak
Replied by ASL #Bivak on topic Emergency bivy protocol
something worth remembering is that wet skin loses heat 30 times faster than dry skin (according the notes from my Scuba training course). That's why its critical to wear hydrophobic clothing in the hills.
I have also read up quite a bit on Mountaineering first aid and if you know what you are doing it makes all the difference. I presume the Messner brothers knew all the tricks of staying alive. A lot of it centres around maintaining your circulation, staying awake and eating to keep your metabolism going etc. There are a long list of To-Do's.
I have also read up quite a bit on Mountaineering first aid and if you know what you are doing it makes all the difference. I presume the Messner brothers knew all the tricks of staying alive. A lot of it centres around maintaining your circulation, staying awake and eating to keep your metabolism going etc. There are a long list of To-Do's.
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29 Aug 2013 14:24 #58304
by ghaznavid
Interesting stuff - hence the fact that you get all wet clothes off as soon as possible and put any dry clothes you have available on.
I wonder about Bugs' point on the plastic bags over wet socks - what I often found with my old waterproof (but not breathable) pants was that when I was wearing them I didn't notice that I was wet. I only noticed when I took them off.
I stand to be corrected, but as far as I understand, being wet makes you cold due to the fact that when water evaporates off a surface it cools the surface. Thus preventing evaporation - whether by Bugs' plastic packets over his wet socks or by a space blanket with practically no air circulation - you shouldn't loose much heat?
It was their first time in the Himalayas, but they both had plenty of experience in the Dolomites (not sure how cold it gets there).
In his book he says that they didn't sleep and kept wiggling their toes and fingers to prevent frost bite. Their packs were back at the last camp below the summit, they had no food or water.
I must actually go and read that part of the book again.
Replied by ghaznavid on topic Emergency bivy protocol
ASL wrote: something worth remembering is that wet skin loses heat 30 times faster than dry skin (according the notes from my Scuba training course). That's why its critical to wear hydrophobic clothing in the hills.
Interesting stuff - hence the fact that you get all wet clothes off as soon as possible and put any dry clothes you have available on.
I wonder about Bugs' point on the plastic bags over wet socks - what I often found with my old waterproof (but not breathable) pants was that when I was wearing them I didn't notice that I was wet. I only noticed when I took them off.
I stand to be corrected, but as far as I understand, being wet makes you cold due to the fact that when water evaporates off a surface it cools the surface. Thus preventing evaporation - whether by Bugs' plastic packets over his wet socks or by a space blanket with practically no air circulation - you shouldn't loose much heat?
ASL wrote: I have also read up quite a bit on Mountaineering first aid and if you know what you are doing it makes all the difference. I presume the Messner brothers knew all the tricks of staying alive. A lot of it centres around maintaining your circulation, staying awake and eating to keep your metabolism going etc. There are a long list of To-Do's.
It was their first time in the Himalayas, but they both had plenty of experience in the Dolomites (not sure how cold it gets there).
In his book he says that they didn't sleep and kept wiggling their toes and fingers to prevent frost bite. Their packs were back at the last camp below the summit, they had no food or water.
I must actually go and read that part of the book again.
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29 Aug 2013 14:42 #58305
by ghaznavid
Replied by ghaznavid on topic Emergency bivy protocol
From Messner's book Naked Mountain, the chapter "Bivouac"
Pg 205 “we took off our boots, wrapped our feet in a section of space blanket – a thin, aluminium-coated laminate designed to reflect back the body’s own heat – stuck our feet back inside our two pairs of inner boots and sat on the outers, using them as an insulating layer between our backsides and the ground”
“we wrapped more of the foil around us and sat there apathetically, hunched over, for hours”
Pg 206 “we huddled closer together. We had wrapped the space blanket so tightly around us that the wind could not get hold of it but our heads were free, covered only by our caps, which offered precious little protection."
Pg 205 “we took off our boots, wrapped our feet in a section of space blanket – a thin, aluminium-coated laminate designed to reflect back the body’s own heat – stuck our feet back inside our two pairs of inner boots and sat on the outers, using them as an insulating layer between our backsides and the ground”
“we wrapped more of the foil around us and sat there apathetically, hunched over, for hours”
Pg 206 “we huddled closer together. We had wrapped the space blanket so tightly around us that the wind could not get hold of it but our heads were free, covered only by our caps, which offered precious little protection."
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31 Aug 2013 14:34 - 01 Sep 2013 08:40 #58315
by ghaznavid
Replied by ghaznavid on topic Emergency bivy protocol
So we drove up to Giant's Castle yesterday with the goal of an early start this morning. It was nice and warm at the car park, so we decided to try a space blanket bivy.
We found a small rocky overhang about 1km from the car park, put a space blanket down, backpacks behind our heads and a space blanket over us with rocks holding down the corners. This was really warm till about midnight.
At midnight we were getting cold, so we wrapped ourselves up relatively tightly with our space blankets, used plasters to seal them.
This was great till about 2:30. With a temperature of around 5 and the wind picking up and blowing straight through the gaps in the space blankets. At this point we didn't feel like moving back to the car park - especially seeing as we planned to get up at 5, so we moved right to the back of the little overhang and moved right close to each other.
At 4:30 we decided to call it a night and begin our walk for the day - by no means the warmest night I have ever had in the Berg. I do see advantages to a proper bivy though - it took 15 mins to go from trying to sleep (it was really uncomfortable without anything other than a space blanket between myself and the floor) to walking.
So in summary I think the addition of an emergency bag/large plastic packet would make a big difference. But at any temperature below 5 (maybe 0 without wind), the warmth of your fellow hiker will be more effective than the space blanket...
We found a small rocky overhang about 1km from the car park, put a space blanket down, backpacks behind our heads and a space blanket over us with rocks holding down the corners. This was really warm till about midnight.
At midnight we were getting cold, so we wrapped ourselves up relatively tightly with our space blankets, used plasters to seal them.
This was great till about 2:30. With a temperature of around 5 and the wind picking up and blowing straight through the gaps in the space blankets. At this point we didn't feel like moving back to the car park - especially seeing as we planned to get up at 5, so we moved right to the back of the little overhang and moved right close to each other.
At 4:30 we decided to call it a night and begin our walk for the day - by no means the warmest night I have ever had in the Berg. I do see advantages to a proper bivy though - it took 15 mins to go from trying to sleep (it was really uncomfortable without anything other than a space blanket between myself and the floor) to walking.
So in summary I think the addition of an emergency bag/large plastic packet would make a big difference. But at any temperature below 5 (maybe 0 without wind), the warmth of your fellow hiker will be more effective than the space blanket...
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Last edit: 01 Sep 2013 08:40 by ghaznavid.
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01 Oct 2013 06:47 #58632
by ghaznavid
Replied by ghaznavid on topic Emergency bivy protocol
Just thinking - my scenario that we tried was based on a situation where you are stuck without a sleeping bag. If you had a sleeping bag, no tent or bivy bag, and couldn't find a good cave - it should be easy to make a bivy bag out of a space blanket with plasters.
With regards to what happened on the first attempt - I have noticed that when the Messner brothers where stuck on Nanga they put the space blanket inside their shoes. Perhaps if we had put the space blankets between our inner layers and our outer layers we would have been toasty. I may need to give the emergency bivy thing another shot some time.
With regards to what happened on the first attempt - I have noticed that when the Messner brothers where stuck on Nanga they put the space blanket inside their shoes. Perhaps if we had put the space blankets between our inner layers and our outer layers we would have been toasty. I may need to give the emergency bivy thing another shot some time.
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01 Oct 2013 11:33 #58654
by Viking
“Today is your day! Your mountain is waiting, So… get on your way!”
Replied by Viking on topic Emergency bivy protocol
“Today is your day! Your mountain is waiting, So… get on your way!”
The following user(s) said Thank You: Selous, Josh of the Bushveld
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