Berg Self Defense Discussions

@Jody

Thanx for responding to the questions. 'Sterkte'

I think a few lessons and some doubt. Firstly have ones poles ready. I always sleep with them next to me, as well as my tripod which doubles as a persuader.

However, most hikers (and most people) are not violent, so that act of striking others does not come naturally. I recall reading one of Joe Simpson's books (the man who has his rope cut). During the 80's, a dance party got rumbled by some thugs. And while all the climbers there were fit, strong and had ice axes in the house, they found it difficult to go on the attack. He said as thinking people, the consequences of accidentally killing one of their assailants was on their minds, they had not the brutish instinct of their attackers.

How hard to retaliate, i suppose is the question. Do you give in and hope that it will end with a transfer of gear, or do you go for the jugular. I don't have an answer for this, does it give them pause for thought, or just make other attacks more violent. I can only hope that these guys are caught before someone is killed.

I was also considering the relative safety of caves vs tents this morning, and it is true what has been said, certainly more vulnerable in a tent, because you can only come out to defend or attack. You also stick out like a sore thumb.

The other thing is that it is a good idea for all in the party to carry pepper spray regardless of the weight, for this situation, or for dogs.

I still think given the % of attacks around full moon, when it is brighter, it should be a red flag for summit trips, unless you can sleep in caves. I suppose some better planning would help ito strategic spots to pitch ones tent.

I had an idea that a battery powered outdoor ir sensor alarm might work as a way of scaring them and alerting you. What does everyone think, a step too far? www.bunnings.com.au/swann-wireless-driveway-alert-alarm-system_p4220382 There must be local options for this.

@Ranger. Thanx for the assistance that you guys gave to the victims, I am sure you will prosecute this with the resources that you have. Any chance that the army start running regular patrols along the border in this area?

Also any idea when this will make the news, I have not found anything yet on iol or the other channels? This after all, is an international incident. I have to also wonder, what legal status do hikers have wondering about in another country, without passports, or does the fact that it is a transfrontier park give one certain rights?

Mod Note- Posts moved from Berg Alert 2016 thread

Serious tribe wrote: I had an idea that a battery powered outdoor ir sensor alarm might work as a way of scaring them and alerting you. What does everyone think, a step too far? www.bunnings.com.au/swann-wireless-driveway-alert-alarm-system_p4220382 There must be local options for this.

Many years ago, friends of mine used those little alarms the carp fishermen use, with some nylon line around the perimeter. We're going to use the same system on our hike, although I have never used it myself. After reading the cave suggestion I may stick to that as I'm hiking from Sentinel to Cathedral starting 9 May, and I also see we have a new moon, almost. I've taken all the learnings from the forum and which areas to avoid and have also decided to keep scanning the hills all day with binoculars, and if people are watching us we will continue hiking into the night and keep an ultra low profile. Hopefully it will be enough to enjoy what is truly a magical place.

Very good posts by everyone, thank you.

To Jody and his friends, I hope you guys all recover well, especially mentally. It was a terrible thing to happen. I wish you the best of luck.

I'll definitely be sleeping in a down jacket already donned and have a "grab bag" at the ready with a few survival items, just in case.

My understanding that the attack on the Treverton group in 2004 happen in Giants Cave, speaking from memory though maybe someone has more details?

So caves are not completely immune, but agree you are far more vulnerable in / exiting a tent.

tiska wrote: The thing about tents is that you are, in effect, visible to your attackers but they are not visible to you. When attacked in a tent, your next move, to exit the tent, is 100% predictable.
Attacks seem rare to non existent in caves because that predictability does not exist.

I once hiked Mafadi with someone who had one of those alarms @AdrianT is referring to. Multiple false alarms every night due to wind etc. It drove us nuts on the other hand, no-one came near us

Long-term, the solution will have to involve the Basotho community in some winsome way.

Firstly to Jody and his friends, I wish you a speedy recovery from a terrible experience that no one should have to endure. It makes me sad to the core!

I have read through all the contributions on this topic, and without stirring up a hornets nest, no one has mentioned caring a firearm?

I personally always hike with a small caliber revolver, not only in the Berg but on all hikes in SA. My theory has always been, if rocks rain on my tent I will discharge one or two round as warning shots, this should buy me enough time to exit my tent, grab essentials and clear out.
No equipment I own is worth a life! Please don't think I'm some gun crazy individual looking for trouble. The firearm is kept concealed at all times, and thankfully I have never had to use it.

Perhaps for those who are uncomfortable with firearms large "crackers" can be used. I'm simply trying to find a way in which to react to an indecent which the aggressors least expect!

Please feel free to remove this post should anyone find it offensive.

@ Redshift3: yes there are hikers that carry firearms and if it becomes a life/death situation will use them...especially if there are women to be protected in the group. I know this is a touchy issue but it is the reality of the state of our country. Normally one discharge will get them to flee, even if they have firearms themselves!! It is a cowardly act to attack a tent at night with rocks and cowards are normally the first to flee.

Redshift3 wrote: I personally always hike with a small caliber revolver, not only in the Berg but on all hikes in SA.

People don't want to mention it I often hike with my .45, because I hike 95% of the time alone, and sometimes at night for taking photos. I like to be alone and away from people. Although I must stress it is not allowed by Cape Nature, I'm not sure what the Berg is like and what their rules are but I would guess it is not strictly allowed. It is also route dependent on whether I would carry. There are many people hiking armed even on Table Mountain. They will never admit of course. If I am somewhere even only slightly dodgy with my wife, I carry to protect her. What was it? 2 rapes in a week about 2 or 3 months ago in Cape Town? It is terrible we even have to think about hiking with a firearm, but this is the state of our country.

The the other issue is, you may find yourself at the receiving end of your own firearm as there are so many variables, especially in a night raid. As someone also mentioned, the legalities of being in Lesotho could also mean you find yourself in a world of trouble. It's a sensitive topic and I'm always will be. Each to their own. A warning shot would be a very good deterrent though. Of course it could also spur them on to become armed in the future...

The cracker idea could be a good one. I have not lit one in years.

AdrianT wrote: Of course it could also spur them on to become armed in the future...

This is exactly what worries me

Consider this scenario - you wake up in the middle of the night as someone presses against your tent, you pull out your gun and fire a warning shot. It turns out that your hiking partner got up to go to the bathroom, on their way back to the tent they tripped over a guy-rope and pushed against the tent. Your warning shot fired directly into the air hit them in the head because of the angle at which the fell.

Most studies suggest that people who own guns are more likely to be worse off. If people are fighting back with guns, what's to stop them from putting some bullets through your tent to make sure you can't fight back. If they are too cowardly to risk you fighting back, this will stop a possible counter-attack.

I remember reading a story about hospitals being broken into, anesthetic gas being stolen and used to knock hikers out while their camp is raided (can't remember where this happened). If you have a gun and end up on the wrong end of an incident like this, you will have just armed a person who is trying to raid camps. What about your stuff getting stolen while you are swimming?

My opinion may not be a popular one - but I say no to guns. Not in the mountains and not in homes. Guns are for soldiers in war zones (where they are largely decorative anyway - seeing as, on average, there is a ratio of something like 10 000 bullets fired per kill). It just ends badly far too often. If you must carry a gun, carry a BB gun or a paintball gun - it hurts enough to chase attackers away, but at least you probably won't accidentally (or intentionally) kill someone.

It is also vital to note that killing someone in self-defense still gets you a charge of culpable homicide (even murder in certain instances) in SA - and I would imagine the same is true in Lesotho.

To Jody and Co - sincere apologies that this happened you guys. Things like this just shouldn't happen. It is not right!

ghaznavid wrote: ... Most studies suggest that people who own guns are more likely to be worse off...

I can tell that you are anti-gun but please could you shed some light and provide links to "most studies" proving your claim.
Don't let the dubious work of a Gun Free SA distort the actual truth about carrying guns.