Berg Self Defense Discussions

@Ghaz - I'm exactly opposite to your viewpoint.
You will be surprised to find out how many hikers are armed on their hikes.
It is more than you think.

If the scenarios you so vividly play test was real issues, we would have had incidents reported about them long ago. Taking a weapon along is not a "maybe lets start now" discussion - but rather a case of, they got lucky their victims were not one of the armed groups.

This is an interesting and good natured discussion. But could I suggest to the moderators that a new thread on Berg safety tactics is created. That will keep the Alert thread to incidents.

Grandeur wrote: I can tell that you are anti-gun but please could you shed some light and provide links to "most studies" proving your claim.
Don't let the dubious work of a Gun Free SA distort the actual truth about carrying guns.

Off a quick google search, this comes up:
www.psychologytoday.com/blog/get-psyched/201301/the-weapons-effect

I found that one rather interesting.

@Coeta: a friend of my mothers was on the wrong end of one of these gun horror stories. Her father (who had served in the military, so he did know about gun safety) was cleaning his gun one day when it accidentally discharged. The shot hit her in the back (aged 2 or 3 at the time) and she has been in a wheelchair her entire life because of this.

Fear is a dangerous matter - take the guy who carried anti-venom for the possibility of a snake bite. Today most people seem to believe that he took the wrong anti-venom and that is what actually killed him. Fear can result in a complete mishandling of a situation. If you are afraid of being attacked during the night, so you carry a gun - adrenaline kicks in when you have been suddenly woken from deep sleep, and who knows what happens.

Random side note/quote:
"A man that flies from his fear may find that he has only taken a short cut to meet it" - JRR Tolkien's character Túrin Turambar in his book The Tales of the Children of Húrin.

@ ghaznavid: A responsible gun owner will not just fire a shot out the tent when there is a noise of any sort outside or even fire a shot at someone cutting through your tent or even when rocks are thrown at your tent.....no they will give the robber/attacker every chance to retreat and flee. A responsible gun owner will not leave his firearm unattended while swimming or be careless with it...it is a huge responsibility and must be treated so. It shall be used at a last resort and only if there is a visible target in sight and still then give the attacker a chance to flee. If it comes to an absolute life /death situation then a responsible gun owner will do what's necessary. Will you let someone throw you or your wife over a cliff or smash your scull!!!!

It's an interesting discussion but one that seems never ending. I am neither pro nor against firearms. I, like many of you, have pulled a few triggers. Some at stationery and others at moving targets. The one thing that is true in both cases is that a bullet is generally pretty effective at achieving its objective.

My opinion is simple...
Find a solution that works for you, learn how to use it effectively and stick with it. If someone else finds another way then so be it. As long as your chosen method is legal, you are confident in its safe use, your hiking partners has full disclosure of your methods and you are willing to live with the consequences of your actions, regardless of what led to it.

These are tough decisions to make and should be given decent thought. It also raises the question of Duty of Care. This is not just applicable in a commercial environment but also in a group of friends and most other situations.

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kbresler wrote: Find a solution that works for you, learn how to use it effectively and stick with it. If someone else finds another way then so be it. As long as your chosen method is legal, you are confident in its safe use, your hiking partners has full disclosure of your methods and you are willing to live with the consequences of your actions, regardless of what led to it.

The above basically ends the small arms discussion, nothing more to be said.
Whatever your choice, be responsible.

This is an emotive issue, and I hope not a polarising one.

I also worry that if guns are used, then the retaliation might be that they start using them as well. Or they assume, like they have with the 'all hikers carry cash' that we all carry firearms. Always a good incentive to attack us.

For myself, I won't carry a fire arm, however i will carry pepper spray, i will carry a katy with steel shot, and i will use rocks as i am not to bad at using them (stock piling around the tent or cave seems like a good idea). I also think that the ir sensor is a good device to use if it works properly, an ear splitting alarm is the last thing that they would expect when they think that everyone is fast asleep and will give them a hellofa fright.

When hiking as i usually do, with just one other mate, we always are extremely mindful of where we are. I would far rather keep a low profile than have a confrontation, so being hyper-vigilant,scanning ridge lines with binos is the norm, as is careful placement of our tent. We have even used came netting over the tent on one occasion.

However, given this and last years assault, I will be even more careful that i don't hike on the escarpment around full moon (no issues doing this on the sa side of the berg), and if i do, not in that general area.

Still nothing on the news about it though. I find this really odd.

I reckon ST and kbresler have succinctly summarised the options.

I have one comment to add:
The authorities need to follow this up, do something about it, and publicly report back. If they don't, I reckon it will escalate and sooner or later a group with the inclination to defend themselves with extreme prejudice, will be attacked and there will be a shoot-out. Bear in mind it's a wilderness with minimal law enforcement up there.

Just my thoughts on this topic.

I have a good few years of Kung fu training, so I am more than capable of defending myself. But with that said its myself and not anyone else with me, although I could give a good go.

With what I have learnt through the years is that a situation can change in an instant, whether for or against.I agree with Ghaz of no guns in homes and in the mountains. I have a mate who does gun training and scenario training, he strongly stands with the fact of arming yourself whereby I am not.

I agree again with a lot of you on protecting family members and the women in our lives, but a gun can turn a situation really ugly. I am more comfortable using my knife and hiking poles as weapons as I have been trained that way, guns cause people to become edgy and nervous, especially attackers. Nothing worse than having a nervous finger on a trigger.

I think in a big way hikers should have some sort of self defense training to able to disarm and protect themselves. I have already started passing my knowledge onto my 10 year old daughter so she can become confident in this regard.

To the guys that went through this, I hope you recover well come out stronger mentally!!

All the best